Curse

lightblade · Nov 09, 2006, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Ok...as an general reply:

Just because you don't see how it can be synergized, doesn't mean others cannot

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keilious Ahruhk

2. Only one other class has skills that really synergise with a paragon, warrior (and one useless ritualist skill, woot). This is a problem because we have a very limited number of skills on the base class itself anyway. :/

Read this thread. On how my mesmer synergized with paragon.

Paragon's Leadership attribute's inhereted effect offers little benefit. So any class can synergize well with paragon. Especially when many paragon skills are basically unlinked.

Keilious Ahruhk · Nov 09, 2006, 10:32 PM // 22:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by lightblade

Ok...as an general reply:

Just because you don't see how it can be synergized, doesn't mean others cannot

Read this thread. On how my mesmer synergized with paragon.

Paragon's Leadership attribute's inhereted effect offers little benefit. So any class can synergize well with paragon. Especially when many paragon skills are basically unlinked.

Uh, yeah, but that's with a mesmer primary, I have no doubt that paragon makes for a great secondary. I apologise for not making it clear that I'm talking about paragon primary here.

As for most of the other posts, read the damn first post, I'm not arguing that paragons are underpowered.

Someone also suggested that I don't think of my own builds, WTF are you on about? My complaint here is that for every other class I can make a build that is benefitted by skills from just about any secondary, whereas for paragon, skills from secondary classes other than warrior and a tiny bit of ranger don't synergise (usefully, anyway) with paragon skills or attributes, meaning that there really is no point to a secondary. For example, putting shock on a warrior synergises with the fact that they can use most skills without energy, and the fact that their damage output is increased when a target cannot move.

Everyone keeps saying that's 'its only been out for week!!!111!', how this stops me from seeing that almost all skills from other classes are useless for paragon, I'll never know.
But okay, I'll bide my time, maybe you're right, after a few more weeks something may pop up that I hadn't thought of.

As for JoeKnowMo, you definately have some good ideas there, though obviously they're highly inefficient, it does work, with the exception of the minion raising build, which just seems useless, but I'll definately be trying some more stuff with angelic bond, thanks for the tips.

In the meantime, I'm having heaps of fun with my paragon, its just a shame that none of my guildies have caught up to me in terms of missions yet, I'm stuck here in the desolation wasting time ranting on GWG. :P

Geishe · Nov 10, 2006, 03:25 PM // 15:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desires

I'm still waiting for the triple chain "incoming" builds.

How about a Rit and a Paragon with paragon running Vocal was Sogolon + Incoming.... and Rit running Soul Twisting + union + Quickening Zephyr?

Constant 50% damage reduction + constant -15 damge reduction.

Constant.

zinfamous · Nov 12, 2006, 05:17 AM // 05:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by PanGammon

IMO all Paragons do is yell at people..........

indeed

Made In Ascalon · Nov 12, 2006, 11:49 AM // 11:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keilious Ahruhk

Someone also suggested that I don't think of my own builds, WTF are you on about? My complaint here is that for every other class I can make a build that is benefitted by skills from just about any secondary, whereas for paragon, skills from secondary classes other than warrior and a tiny bit of ranger don't synergise (usefully, anyway) with paragon skills or attributes, meaning that there really is no point to a secondary. For example, putting shock on a warrior synergises with the fact that they can use most skills without energy, and the fact that their damage output is increased when a target cannot move.

Everyone keeps saying that's 'its only been out for week!!!111!', how this stops me from seeing that almost all skills from other classes are useless for paragon, I'll never know.
But okay, I'll bide my time, maybe you're right, after a few more weeks something may pop up that I hadn't thought of.

See my thread I just made:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10075533
One example of elementalist skills working together with paragon skills. Glowing signet is an important skill in it, and it's one of the ones you deem useless. You also HAVE to be a paragon primary, since "They're on fire!" is a leadership shout. Whoever said that is right; just because you are incapable of seeing the potential doesn't mean it isn't there.

Also...I'm guessing you don't understand how to work around the energy degen in "The Power is Yours!"?

FoxBat · Nov 12, 2006, 05:23 PM // 17:23

It basically boils down to paragons having only 2 pips of energy regen. This really limited warrior's options to play other secondaries, and the paragon suffers the same fate, as his only energy advantage over warriors (shouts/chants) doesn't show up anywhere else. You can still find some nice secondary tricks just like warriors, but yes, having no energy to cast spells is indeed pretty limiting. On top of that, a fair number of the support skills seem pretty darn specific to running a specific kind of team, much like ritualists, which means they aren't generally options for a PvE pug.

Chrono Re delle Ere · Nov 12, 2006, 09:19 PM // 21:19

Well I love paragon.....before my favourite class was the warrior for his various applications.....Ive invented some nice build like for example a caster-killer warrior, with dazing etc etc. I always hated the support kind classes....but now I simply love my paragon. U said that generally the build is the paragon/warrior with little variants; here is my build (as u can see, no one of ur skills are named here; I've already posted this build in the right topic, dun worry

):

Here is my own build

valid for both pve and pvp; already tried it)

Paragon/Warrior

ARMOR:[all parts with a radiant insigna]
Superior Motivation[head]
Superio Vigor (or major as well)[body]
Minor Spear[gloves]
+2 energy rune[legs]
Minor Leadership[shoes]

ATTRIBUTES
Spear: 10 (9+1)
Leadership: 10 (9+1)
Motivation: 16 (12+3+1)
Tactic:0

Equip:
Spear max dmg (req 9/10)
energy+5
double adrenaline (10%)
HP+30

Shield defense:16 (req: 8/9/10/11/12/13 motivation)
HP+30
Dmg decrease -5(20%)

Skills:
Barbed Spear
Song of Restoration [E]
Ballad of Restoration
Zealous Anthem
"Watch Yourself!"
Finale of Restoration
Mending Refrain
Ress Signet

HOW TO USE IT:
1) Before the combat starts put on each of ur teammates mending refrain; use the refrain on urself then, when the rechargin time is finishing, use a song; immediatelly after u casted the song, use the refrain on the next tammate, and keep going like this. To refresh the Mending Refrain, use the next chorus immediately after that the first one has finished his effect.

2) While u are fighting keep attacking an enemy: the important thing isn't the damage, but the adrenaline that u have to gain. With this adrenaline u will use "Watch Urself!" spamming it. With the tactic attribute=0 "Watch Yourself!" will be 5 seconds long. This will grant u an always refreshing effect on your teammates mending refrains. In addition, each time you will use "Watch yourself!" you will gain a 5 energy bonus thx to your leadership attribute. You will never be out of energy even thx to the Zealous Anthem.

3)Try to change enemy and put on different enemys a bleeding effect with barbed spear. Use barbed spear only if u need energy and u have already activated the Zealous Anthem or if your enemy isn't bleeding.

4)While in combat, always spam your chorus and ballads.

I hope you'll enjoy my build

U can do loooots of things with a paragon!

Carth` · Nov 13, 2006, 01:26 PM // 13:26

I love the Command and Motivation skills (and I love Leadership primary attribute, it basically makes your shouts free with only a little investment).

The only part of paragons I didn't like so much was the Spear Mastery line. It seemed like all of the attacks were conditional in some way. Vicious Attack only causes a deep wound on a critical hit. Swift Javelin is only faster when you are under an enchantment. Slayer's Spear only deep wounds if you are almost dead. Merciless Spear only deep wounds almost dead foes. Disrupting Throw only interrupts if they are suffering from a condition! Cruel Spear, an elite, only deep wounds if they aren't moving. Some of the attacks also take 3 seconds?

One or two like this would be OK but when nearly every attack is the same. -.- Maybe that's why Barbed Spear only needs 3 adrenaline. I can see how some are supposed to work in a combo, but other classes can accomplish the same without a combo, using just the attack.

Also I haven't really tried the paragon properly yet, I was just reading the skills. It could be that after I try it out I will come back and say I love spears.

Skuld · Nov 13, 2006, 02:40 PM // 14:40

Spear of Lightning (and Barbed Spear if i have a spare slot) is all I really bother with. Don't even need Blazing Spear most of the time because of other burning sources!

NeilGarra · Nov 13, 2006, 07:36 PM // 19:36

I've only played my Paragon for about 3 days, but have seen a lot of similarity between its role in Nightfall, and that of a real-life Army small-unit leader in battle. Especially with the integration of the Hero Henchies. Method atthis point seems to be:

- Train and equip your Soldiers (actually common to all professions)

- Lead and command them in battle (chants, shouts, anthems, etc)

- Personnaly engage the enemy ony when you can afford the luxury OR when you must. (Save that energy for group-enhancement skills.)

I can CERTAINLY relate to the comment that "all the Paragon does is shout at people"! That's how its done in real life, although its not all shouting, and I NEVER sang my Soldiers an Anthem! :-) But I think that over time the general concensus will be that the primary weapon of the Paragon is the Team, not the Spear. Can't wait to get my Hero Henchies up to speed, and then join another Paragon w/four trained Henchies for an 8-player mission! Just like the old days: one Squad, with two Fire Teams.

Thanks for good ideas on builds!

======================================

Neil

JoeKnowMo · Nov 13, 2006, 09:28 PM // 21:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keilious Ahruhk

My complaint here is that for every other class I can make a build that is benefitted by skills from just about any secondary, whereas for paragon, skills from secondary classes other than warrior and a tiny bit of ranger don't synergise (usefully, anyway) with paragon skills or attributes, meaning that there really is no point to a secondary. For example, putting shock on a warrior synergises with the fact that they can use most skills without energy, and the fact that their damage output is increased when a target cannot move.

/sarcasm

So true. A shock warrior is great in pve, since enemies kite a lot. Also, a warrior has many adrenaline skills while a paragon has almost none, so if a para used shock they won't have energy left for anything else. Everyone knows that shock + awe is a much worse combo than anything a war could do with shock.

It's best not to try any secondaries other than a war or a ranger with a para as we can already tell that there's absolutely no synergy there. Don't bother searching various forums or sites for builds using a secondary as these don't exist.

What??? Did I hear someone say that a paragon can put succor on 2 monks and keep them on forever, effectively acting as a permanent Peace and Harmony while keeping their energy levels up with adrenaline shouts and other skills? Do NOT believe it. We already know for sure that synergy with other classes other than War or Ranger is impossible.

What??? Did someone else say that a P/D with a scythe and an IAS can spam irresistible sweep and victorious sweep while using GFTE to keep their energy up while? And with burning refrain they can keep foes burning almost all the time? NO WAY.

/end sarcasm.

Spura · Nov 13, 2006, 10:37 PM // 22:37

I am disappointed with dodgability of spears, spear mastery skills, leadership skills and several elites(cough "The Power Is Yours!" cough).

jesh · Nov 14, 2006, 07:53 PM // 19:53

The spear skills are gimped. Paragons as a whole are definitely not, and I love mine. <3

As for the guy who said they have the same limitations as a warrior? Wtf? Look at the searing flames build that was just posted. Let me see you run that on a warrior primary. I really doubt this guy even knows what the primary attribute does for paragons.

Carth` · Nov 15, 2006, 06:48 AM // 06:48

Actually after my comment above I went and tried a spear mastery paragon and had a lot of fun. The spear does decent damage without any attacks, and the bleeding is so easy to reapply that I had no trouble meeting conditions. I was having no problem causing bleeding, deep wounds, burning and dazed. In fact the only problem is the spears are ridiculously easy to dodge. It didn't matter that I got the monk dazed, he could avoid all my spears afterwards until the dazed was gone.

Overall I think paragons are a great support class. They aren't really an easily defined role like other classes where you know having one means something. Instead a paragon is best when your team knows and works with you to get skills that complement your team. For this reason I think their use will be a bit hazy in PvE unless a cookie cutter build is made for them.

crucifix · Nov 15, 2006, 07:45 PM // 19:45

uhhh wow... so after reading the headline post, im wondering if you bothered to take a paragon through anything.

incoming
stand your ground
watch yourself
anthem of flame
aggressive refrain
shields up (if ye want)

just those skills in one build applies a +44 armor while standing still and +94 to pericing while SU is up. a paragon plays a support role. they can do condition spam for pressure, but honestly. you cant beat a paragon for damage support. everything they have is non strippable, for the most part non interruptable, and adrenal based. with 10+ into leadership you can manage your energy with WYS.

Spura · Nov 15, 2006, 08:40 PM // 20:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carth`

Actually after my comment above I went and tried a spear mastery paragon and had a lot of fun. The spear does decent damage without any attacks, and the bleeding is so easy to reapply that I had no trouble meeting conditions. I was having no problem causing bleeding, deep wounds, burning and dazed. In fact the only problem is the spears are ridiculously easy to dodge. It didn't matter that I got the monk dazed, he could avoid all my spears afterwards until the dazed was gone.

Overall I think paragons are a great support class. They aren't really an easily defined role like other classes where you know having one means something. Instead a paragon is best when your team knows and works with you to get skills that complement your team. For this reason I think their use will be a bit hazy in PvE unless a cookie cutter build is made for them.

Actually spear 16 auto-attack has damage per minute around 1490 which is a bit less than axe, about as much as sword and a bit more than daggers.

So spear as such isn't gimped. But it is, IMO the worst weapon in the game.

Reasons:

It is easily dodgable.

You lose just as much DPS because of dodges as warrior with kiting targets. Bow has ways of making this a non-issue(RtW, Favorable Winds).
Also when adrenaline attack gets dodged it hurts more than when energy attack gets dodged(bow has only energy attacks). When you activate an adrenaline attack, it also drains 1 strike of adrenaline off other adrenaline skills on your bar, and if it misses, you need another attack to repair the other adrenaline skills.
Spear skills are crappy

They are like axe skills but nerfed. For instance paragon has incredible adrenaline engine in Focused Anger, but no skills to use it on. All adrenaline skills are either weak or 3 sec cast. There isn't a single skill that would just be 8 adren cost +40 damage skill, like galrath slash is with swords. All +40 skills are either elite or cast 3 sec or have some other drawback/limitation.

Let's look at some examples of skills that are just nerfed versions of axe or sword skills.
Merciless spear is the same as Dismember(6 adren, no damage bonus, DW skill), but target needs to be under 50%.
Cruel Spear is like Eviscerate, but target has to stand still.
Pure Strike(Sword skill) has +32 damage, more than any of energy attacks of Spear mastery.

Also other weapons are generally better at applying conditions, bow is much more disruptive, bow can compensate lower autoattack damage per minute(around 1150) with preparations and dualshots.

Anyway can't think of a single thing spear would excel in. Hammer has KD, sword has great adrenaline damage skills and good spike, axe has good spike capabilities, high critical hits, scythe is good at conditions, great DPS, dagger is great at conditions, spikes, spear master is just bunch of very conditional deep wound skills.

Carth` · Nov 16, 2006, 12:26 PM // 12:26

But if every class could do the same damage as a warrior, or the same interrupting and unmissable attacks as a ranger, then it would just be a duplicate. This is a unique class.

Unlike a warrior you don't have to be in melee range. Unlike a ranger you have better armor and adrenaline based attacks. The bulk of your skills are party buffs.

Really I wouldn't expect them to have 80 armour, ranged attacks that rarely miss and can apply deep wounds very easily with high damage attacks. I think it would be unbalanced, and it would make a ranger and warrior no longer needed.

The only problem they have that I see is the ease of dodging spears. I at least think Anet thought about the Spear Mastery line, since with a little effort I found it to be very effective. I was killing targets before the shock warrior could get near, and I was doing more damage that the ranger. I was also harder to kill than both.

Made In Ascalon · Nov 16, 2006, 07:39 PM // 19:39

You people worry too much about spear mastery.
Eventually, the skills will be improved. It is inevitable. It's like the ritualist when it started out; Channeling sucked ass. Many of the spells were buffed in later updates, however.

Spura · Nov 16, 2006, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carth`

But if every class could do the same damage as a warrior, or the same interrupting and unmissable attacks as a ranger, then it would just be a duplicate. This is a unique class.

The only problem they have that I see is the ease of dodging spears. I at least think Anet thought about the Spear Mastery line, since with a little effort I found it to be very effective. I was killing targets before the shock warrior could get near, and I was doing more damage that the ranger. I was also harder to kill than both.

Of course we don't want a copy of warrior only ranged. And anet is doing a great job keeping weapons unique. Sctyhe has aoe, hammer has KD and so on. But spear has nothing where it would excel over other weapons as far as I can tell. Like 4 conditional Deep wound attacks, which is total crap in a game with limited number of slots. I'd rather have a single unconditional deep wound attack than cruel spear, vicious attack, spear of envy, merciless spear.
Thus apart from lots of lame ways of making DW, 1 bleed and 1 burning attack spear isn't condition heavy, spike just isn;t there, KD doesn't exist. Not much there except lots of combinations of 3 sec cast times, extra damage and deep wounds.

The 2 solid spear attacks are barbed spear and spear of lightning.
I am trying to put together a build that uses depleting assault, but can't currently because of a bug with focused anger.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Made In Ascalon

You people worry too much about spear mastery.
Eventually, the skills will be improved. It is inevitable. It's like the ritualist when it started out; Channeling sucked ass. Many of the spells were buffed in later updates, however.

That is true. Though rather than buffs I'd see skills reworked. Right now it feels like spear skills are just too similar.

Keilious Ahruhk · Dec 07, 2006, 06:37 AM // 06:37

Seeing as the other discussion thread got hit with the mod-hammer (which is infinitely better than any mod-spear could ever dream of), I'll just bump this one up to continue the debate.
Please people, keep it civil, take the assumptions and personal attacks elsewhere.

Anywho, I've moved everything off my paragon and am moving along with my other two PvE characters for now, I'm hoping for a fix in chapter 4 to the Paragon's complete lack of identity.

Either way, a scythe build works wonders simply because you're hitting a critical (41!

) every second odd hit. The only problem is that enemies are all pansies in PvE and run away after the first one or two blows, crippling your adrenalin intake. Perhaps I should turn one of my heroes into a hydro. Hrm.

Continuing my question from the other thread: Now that "Incoming" is a good bit underpowered in PvE, is there any elite non-motivation shout I can use? :S